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sawman
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USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2009 : 5:22:03 PM
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I have noticed on a couple of the threads a phrase being used "violence is not the answer" or phrases similar in tone and meaning. This sounds very new agey to me. I am quite sure that as Christians we are to be known for our meekness and peacemaking. We are never to threaten overtly in order to coerece. Still, I do not think this is to be taken as a signal to pursue pacifism.
Am I out of order here or what? I know our Lord in many places explicitly or implicitly aknowledges the legitimate use of violence. This ministry uses violence against demons by calling on our Lord's authority and love for us.
And what of metaphorical and poetic language? Are we not to hate evil? Would we or should we not do violence against evil as a matter that is just given? We do not live in a world that is at peace. We are at war in a most deadly and violent conflict. I am not using a metaphorical violence here. Satan is out to kill us with the second death, and we do violence on him through our spiritual warfare and holy living. We do violence on the demonic forces with prayer and fasting, no?
So I am probobly confused here. That would be par for the course. I stand willing to be corrected. What do you guys think?
Peace, Tom |
Tom "To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the sharing of His sufferings by being conformed to His death" |
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Bro. Ignatius Mary
Director SPCDC
   
USA
2318 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2009 : 8:26:32 PM
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Tom:
There are very few people who are true pacifist. In all my years in activism, there was only one person I found to be a true pacifist. He was a man in his upper 60's, a socialist, and firmly held pacifism in an absolute degree. I am sure there are many others, but he is the only one I ever met.
As for Catholic teaching, which is all that matters, there are times in which violence is not only permissible, but may even be a duty.
The Catechism states: quote: Legitimate defense
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow: quote: If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.
2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."
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Avoiding war
2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.
2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."
2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.
Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.
2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.
2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."
2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.
Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide.
2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation." A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.
2315 The accumulation of arms strikes many as a paradoxically suitable way of deterring potential adversaries from war. They see it as the most effective means of ensuring peace among nations. This method of deterrence gives rise to strong moral reservations. The arms race does not ensure peace. Far from eliminating the causes of war, it risks aggravating them. Spending enormous sums to produce ever new types of weapons impedes efforts to aid needy populations; it thwarts the development of peoples. Over-armament multiplies reasons for conflict and increases the danger of escalation.
2316 The production and the sale of arms affect the common good of nations and of the international community. Hence public authorities have the right and duty to regulate them. The short-term pursuit of private or collective interests cannot legitimate undertakings that promote violence and conflict among nations and compromise the international juridical order.
2317 Injustice, excessive economic or social inequalities, envy, distrust, and pride raging among men and nations constantly threaten peace and cause wars. Everything done to overcome these disorders contributes to building up peace and avoiding war: quote: Insofar as men are sinners, the threat of war hangs over them and will so continue until Christ comes again; but insofar as they can vanquish sin by coming together in charity, violence itself will be vanquished and these words will be fulfilled: "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
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God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM+ Servant of the Servants of the Cross of Christ
 
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Bro. Ignatius Mary
Director SPCDC
   
USA
2318 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2009 : 10:53:12 PM
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Heidi:
The answer to your post is on the thread about George Tiller.
Please post messages about Tiller on that thread instead of this one. Thanks. |
God Bless, Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM+ Servant of the Servants of the Cross of Christ
 
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Carol
Squire
  
USA
469 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2009 : 10:58:20 PM
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The problem with killing Tiller is that we may never commit evil to bring about good.
I'm really glad that more babies won't be aborted by Tiller.
But killing him was wrong and may have taken away his opportunity to repent and it hurt so many innocent people, too. I shudder to think of his family's grief and the way all the people at his church were traumatized by the shooting.
When I talked about violence not being the answer on a different thread, I meant in that instance, relevant to what we were discussing.
I don't consider my pacifist at all. I served in the military for a number of years and was truly ready to engage in warfare if that was what was required of me. |
Carol |
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ClareFrancis
Squire
  
USA
557 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 1:47:39 PM
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Here is a [long] article that I think fits here.
The author is John Zmirack who may not be an expert on anything but writing, but he is a popular writer for "Inside Catholic". |
Clare
Do not be ashamed to confess your sins, and do not try to stop the current of a river.~Sirach 4:26
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ClareFrancis
Squire
  
USA
557 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 1:54:13 PM
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From the article:
quote: The reason it's wrong to kill abortionists is that it is an act of war, and one that does not meet the conditions for a Just War.When the State allows an activity, and you use force to prevent it, you are declaring war on the State -- as surely as early Christians would have been doing if they used force to free their co-religionists from the Coliseum, or free Roman slaves from the mines or prostitution. None of which, students of history will know, early Christians actually did. This wasn't because they were pacifists; many Christians served in the Roman armies, such as that patron of soldiers St. Sebastian. Some early version of the Just War theory finally formulated (not invented) by St. Augustine was surely at work. That Just War theory found in Augustine's writings still binds us today -- albeit with certain adjustments and clarifications to cover cases of legitimate revolt against a tyranny, and speculations by the likes of Robert Bellarmine on the rightness or wrongness of killing tyrants. If, by engaging in organized violence to save lives left unprotected by the State, one is indeed declaring war upon that State, the conditions of Just War teaching must be met -- or else you are nothing more than a terrorist, an irresponsible person (like poor, deluded Guy Fawkes) whose actions will do nothing more than encourage a persecution of the Church. What are the conditions for a war (in this case, a revolution) to be just? You can read them in detail here, but central to them are: A just cause, defending the innocent from attack. (Check.) A situation that long experience has shown cannot be resolved by peaceful means. (Not yet, not by any means; impatience with rejiggering the Supreme Court doesn't equal the presence of the Gestapo.) An evil proportionate to the evils that will come from war. (Not clear at all; see the horrors of the civil strife in Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Bosnia, Palestine -- are we ready to inflict all that upon our neighbors?) A reasonable chance of success. (Would a civil war launched by orthodox Christians against America's secular regime end in a just peace that preserved innocent lives? Or millions of dead, and a de-Christianized America? Would "winning" even be worth it -- given what happened to the Church in Spain shortly after the "friendly" regime installed by Franco passed from the stage -- when Catholics were tarred, rightly or wrongly, with all the crimes of the victors?)
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Clare
Do not be ashamed to confess your sins, and do not try to stop the current of a river.~Sirach 4:26
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sawman
Page
 
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 3:35:47 PM
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Thanks to all who responded. Your input was helpful. Brother Ignatius' review of the Catechism's teaching was as always clarifying and edifying. Thank you.
Does civil disobedience or protest ever cross the line when one knows that violence may ensue? It seems also that it is becoming more and more looked upon as an act of violence or an incitement to violence to disagree with liberal sacred cows. In an effort to be a light and an encouragement to those in darkness it seems that our christian duty may very well bring on violence. Should we refrain from certain activities when there is a certain chance of violence resulting?
For instance, I was struck recently by the idea of resisting tyranny. The founders of our republic,men who were wiser than I, considered armed revolt to be an appropriate response to tyranny. Is this in line with what the Catechism is saying? I think we are within a gnat's wisker of being at that level of tyranny now. Is it patriotic to resost or to plot revolution ina situation like this? Does breaking the bands of civil society or participating in discusions about such things a wrong thing to do? Where does that line exist between rightly resisting the wrongness of our current regime and wrongly causing or assisting to damage our body politic?
It seems to me that there is no solution to the current mess. There appears to be no political party to which one can gather in order to peacefuly transition the government to a more moraly good outcome.
I don't know, and I'm a very weak man when it comes to these kind of topics. I don't trust my insincts at all here. I know that's not the answer to having an informed conscience, but it is still a very difficult temptation for me.
Thanks for your input, Tom |
Tom "To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the sharing of His sufferings by being conformed to His death" |
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candida
Inquirer

USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 3:48:54 PM
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Tom,
Speaking for myself, I'm no pacifist. In fact I tend to be rather hawkish in my views, while still holding to Catholic doctrine on violence. As a mother, I've always told my children I don't dislike or hate them, but only the behaviours that are not in line with what they've been taught.
In my humble opinion, this important distinction is critical to comprehend for many folks. Yet, when you start utilizing it, you find your ability to focus with clarity on the real issue and seek solutions. Those solutions are then grounded firmly in Christian ethics and teachings. Of course there are, walking this world, folks who are totally given over to evil. Those any prudent person avoids.
There is nothing new agey about this. It evolves out of an active dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ. Many wars are won before a shot is fired, by intelligence, agility and fortitude. Most of all a determination to win. This battle can be won, if we would only strengthen our spiritual defenses, and work together.
In Isaiah 49:15-16 God says
"Surely they will forget you, yet I will not forget you." "See? I have inscribed you on the palms of my hands."
He will not forget us in this our hour of need.
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Carol
Squire
  
USA
469 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 6:05:00 PM
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Tom, I guess I approach the whole topic from a standpoint of "what will actually work" in combatting rampant secularism and liberalism rather than wondering when we can rightly and justly use violence.
Though I am certainly no "dove", my studies of sociology and history (way back in college) have led me to believe that a war for hearts and minds has to be fought very differently from a war over turf or to replace a government.
So many people today think that Jesus was a pacifist, but he wasn't. He was a revolutionary, as embodied by the way Jesus went into the hill country above Galilee to deliver the Sermon on the Mount.
Most people today don't realize it, but many revolutionaries hid out in these hills. It was a notorious region.
The crowds gathered there to hear Jesus were stunned when he did not advocate violent overthrow.
Jesus knew that the persecution of the Jews by Romans would only worsen and grow into a much extended conflict if the Jews fought back with military might and rebellion. That was why he asked the people to turn the other cheek and pray for their enemies.
His audience learned a more wise way, God's way.
It's not that Jesus was saying violence is never appropriate in any situation, but rather he was saying that everyone would lose if violent revolution was waged.
Yes, the Jews would have to grit their teeth and put up with some unpleasantness in humility, but converting the evil Romans was a much more sure, quick way to victory in that instance. His strategy was genius.
When the Jews/Christians finally listened to Jesus and started trying to win over their enemies, the tide turned and many souls were won to Christianity. The Roman empire eventually collapsed, of course.
The war we are fighting against liberal ideals will similarly not be won in violence, especially not in repaying evil with more evil.
As Jesus showed, sometimes we have to work smarter, not harder in a conventional sense.
Anyway, that is how I have come to think of "revolution" and changing the world.
We have to make, with the help of the Holy Spirit, godless, lost people wonder what makes us tick, and why we are sticking to our guns on all these moral issues even in the face of great pressure and persecution.
And we have to make them wonder why we are loving them and praying for them even when they are cruel to us.
This won't be quick or easy, but it will be a better and faster victory in the long run. |
Carol |
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