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chessman
Page
USA
52 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2009 : 6:50:11 PM
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Carol:
What I found from my study of Marx and Communism was not so much that the structure goes against Christianity (in fact Capitalism probably opposes Christian values more) but that Marx himself was against religion in general.
Marx: "Religion is the opiate of the masses."
In my opinion, Marx saw religion as a means to oppress people. If 99% of the people could be convinced that a "better life" awaited them after this current one, then they should just accept that they are poor and over worked because they will be rewarded later. It was this sort of mentality that Marx wanted to destroy, so he attacked religion.
Communism as an economic system is actually similar to what the first Christians had. Everyone would give their money and possessions to the leaders, and they would distribute it evenly.
I think the biggest confusion with Communism and Socialism is that they are ways to run an economy not a government. A Democratic Communism is what Marx and Lenin had in mind. Unfortunately Stalin and others have created Dictatorial Communism's and oppressed the people.
Either way, the real key to the success of any government or economic system is the people. We really need 80-90% of the people to want what is being put in place. We need people to stop stealing and cheating the systems that are designed to help those that need it. Otherwise they will fail or be inefficient at best. When a few people (Obama, Congress, the Senate) are making decisions and forcing things on everyone else, it seems inevitable to failure. |
~Joel |
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Carol
Squire
USA
469 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2009 : 10:50:24 AM
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Hi Joel, thanks for your take on this! What I remember about all this philosophy is gradually coming back to me, especially now that it seems to be more of a contemporary threat under Obama.
I definitely agree with you that communistic and socialist philosophies are bound to fail in practice in any society because they just don't work, even in more democratic practice. People are fallen in sin and just don't always have each other's best interests at heart.
People tend to become corrupt when given too much power and without checks and balances. I'm sure early Christian communities were small enough that those who allocated resources were easily held accountable.
Such a system works great for the Church (well, most of the time) and for religious orders, but I've never concluded that such Biblical accounts were meant as an endorsement for how large economies should operate.
I agree that it would be great to see people more equitably share resources and wealth with one another. Unfortunately, Marx and others of his ilk failed to consider that man in fallen in sin and needs God and His Commandments to encourage such sharing.
At the heart of these philosophies seems to be the idea that man can bring about utopia all by himself and that religion is an unnecessary distraction and source of enslavement. This, in itself, is utterly hateful towards the reality that we are created and sustained by a God who is to be feared and loved.
We are only truly free when we live within the protective boundaries of God's laws. And you can't separate God's laws from religion.
One of the other things I find so troubling about Communism and Socialism are their diametric opposition to the idea of human freedom and liberty, however Marx and others insisted otherwise.
I'm all for donating at least some of my money to the Church and organizations that can use it more efficiently and beneficially than I can, but I think we should all be able to spend or save what we earn as we see fit (understanding that we will be held accountable to God for what we do with our resources.)
Government can quickly become tyrannical and inefficient. There's no way we can trust it to address all of our basic needs. We each need to look out for each other.
Another gripe I have with these philosophies is that they reduce us to "producers" and "consumers", which is terribly degrading. Those who are handicapped, old, too young, or otherwise infirm are deemed burdens on society and all those who produce.
I think it is ironic that the government handouts under socialism often end up creating situations where able-bodied people choose not to "produce" because they can actually come out ahead by not working. Why invest working hours away from their children when most of their salaries will go to fund big government programs that are going to take care of them anyway?
I think Marx completely ignored the reality that lots of religious people will "produce" more precisely because of the Christian values they profess.
I'm not saying that capitalism is king, and that there aren't any pitfalls in it, but I think it generally works out better in application than these other philosophies.
We are having trouble keeping undocumented people out of our country, whereas communist countries have to imprison their folks to keep them from leaving.
I think Obama is terribly misguided, as are many people in his administration.
I think we can both agree that, in the end, only Christianity values and philosophies offer any sort of genuine solution. In Christianity, we generously produce and share our resources, work hard, and love and care for those who are weak and helpless without expecting return. We recognize that we are nothing without God and His blessings.
Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone lived that way?!? Anyway, that's my two cents' worth until I study things further. It is an interesting thing to learn about, I think.
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Carol |
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Bro. Ignatius Mary
Director SPCDC
USA
2318 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2009 : 3:06:02 PM
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Folks:
I do not know where you guys are getting information about Communism, but what is being said here is not accurate.
According to The Communist Manifesto, Communism has ten essential planks:
* Abolition of Private Property.
* Heavy Progressive Income Tax.
* Abolition of Rights of Inheritance.
* Confiscation of Property Rights.
* Central Bank.
* Government Ownership of Communication and Transportation.
* Government Ownership of Factories and Agriculture.
* Government Control of Labor.
* Corporate Farms and Regional Planning.
* Government Control of Education.
Communism has always been a philosophy of economics and politics. It has always been atheistic and its purpose has always been to eradicate religion. When I say always, I mean since its invention with Marx and Engels.
Communism is not just a philosophy of economic and political reform with a goal to destroy religion, but it also seeks the destruction of any ideas of absolute morality.
When put into practice history has shown that is always becomes totalitarian.
I remember in my days of flirting with communism and socialism and hanging around those people I use to use the excuse that communism and socialism was great as a theory and the only thing that mucked it up were corrupt people. In a word, hogwash.
Communism and socialism are bankrupt to its core theoretically and in practice. It is evil and there is no semblance of it that facilitates Christianity (or any religion).
Capitalism, the free market, and democracy fit the Christian ethic. These are the only economic, political, and philosophical ideas that best fit the Teachings of the Church on the dignity of man.
While, in practice capitalism, the free market, and democracy has its corrupt practitioners, these philosophies are the best fit over any other to facilitate Christianity than any other in history.
The early Church did not do anything even remotely similar to communism.
We need to understand the fundamental evil to its core of Communism and socialism.
Satan tends to work in seducing us through the poison apple method and the grain of truth method. Don't be fooled.
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God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM+
Servant of the Servants of the Cross of Christ
 
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Carol
Squire
USA
469 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2009 : 10:38:46 AM
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Brother, you said:
quote:
I do not know where you guys are getting information about Communism, but what is being said here is not accurate.
Sadly, I got most all my information about communism and socialism from pro-Marxist professors and teachers. Only later in life did I question what I had learned in light of Christian teaching.
And I have only heard Christians professors and scholars attack capitalism as largely running against the Christian ethic.
I did have a teacher in high school who helped our class understand the horrors of these philosophies run amok in history, but the emphasis wasn't so much on what was wrong with the philosophies as much as what was wrong with them in application.
Perhaps even most Christians today are misguided on all this? Or heavily influenced by teachings on liberation theology?
Or perhaps if they do understand, they are trying to be "politically correct" in criticizing capitalism and the free market system?
I don't think our young people have much chance to hear the unadulterated truth about these philosophies. Frankly, I can't imagine that most universities would be willing to hire on professors who would debunk all the misconceptions. |
Carol |
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chessman
Page
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2009 : 1:37:18 PM
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Brother:
I am sure you are right and I need to educate myself before I speak anymore about communism.
In thinking about what you said, I realize that what I think communism is and what the true reality of communism is, are two different things.
Hopefully next time I choose to speak on this topic I will either be better educated or will remain silent. |
~Joel |
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sawman
Page
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2009 : 3:50:19 PM
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Joel,
If you want a good book about communism and how it is in real life try " The Gulag Archipelego" by Aleksander Solzhenitsyn. This was there, did that. This is an eyewitness account of what communism is like from the inside. Very eyeopening. |
Tom
"To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the sharing of His sufferings by being conformed to His death" |
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chessman
Page
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2009 : 4:50:19 PM
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Thanks Tom.
I know of the horrific history of communism, although the stuff I have read was always quick to point out that what happened was not communism but totalitarianism or some such thing.
But as Brother pointed out, it seems inevitable that these things are going to happen in communism/socialism.
I will see if my library has that book. |
~Joel |
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Bro. Ignatius Mary
Director SPCDC
USA
2318 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2009 : 8:56:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chessman
I know of the horrific history of communism, although the stuff I have read was always quick to point out that what happened was not communism but totalitarianism or some such thing.
But as Brother pointed out, it seems inevitable that these things are going to happen in communism/socialism.
Joel:
You are still missing the point and the facts.
Communism is not evil because its practitioners abuse the philosophy. Communism is evil fundamentally in its very philosophy regardless of how it is practiced in history. The people who are saying that "that what happened was not communism but totalitarianism" are either lying or delusional. It is communism.
In addition, there is a reason that every instance of communism in history was totalitarian -- because the philosophy facilitates it.
Communism is evil from beginning to end. It is evil in its theory, in its philosophy, and in its practice.
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God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM+
Servant of the Servants of the Cross of Christ
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Carol
Squire
USA
469 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2009 : 09:58:12 AM
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Am I correct in understanding that Marxism is a less extreme application of communistic priniciples?
It's getting to where I don't trust much anything I have learned about all this. |
Carol |
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Bro. Ignatius Mary
Director SPCDC
USA
2318 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2009 : 10:30:41 AM
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Carol:
While there are a number of flavors of Marxism, from Marxist-Leninism to Maoism, Marx-Engels is the basis and foundation of Communism. IN fact, one of the fundamental tenets of most form of Communism is dialectical materialism, which is identified by the Navarre Commentary as the system that may be the anti-Christ.
All of these attempts to gloss over the fundamental evil of Marxism are false. It is a rotten apple.
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God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM+
Servant of the Servants of the Cross of Christ
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Communism
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